tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post7430780322395512074..comments2024-01-25T12:15:23.886+00:00Comments on aaru tuesday: 1958thenehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11851538869806389235noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-37333951081776549052010-08-19T14:57:27.877+01:002010-08-19T14:57:27.877+01:00Ok this post is a bit old but being halfway throug...Ok this post is a bit old but being halfway through The Wind Up Girl (after just reading Saturn's Children) made me go questing for some kind of feminist response to the sexbots. <br /><br />Is it still 1958? The only female character to get a significant amount of word space in the windup girl is a sexbot, a woman genetically modified to be beautiful AND to have "dog like" unityacademyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01010831239598634917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-51309935072442940532010-08-19T14:57:00.381+01:002010-08-19T14:57:00.381+01:00Ok this post is a bit old but being halfway throug...Ok this post is a bit old but being halfway through The Wind Up Girl (after just reading Saturn's Children) made me go questing for some kind of feminist response to the sexbots. <br /><br />Is it still 1958? The only female character to get a significant amount of word space in the windup girl is a sexbot, a woman genetically modified to be beautiful AND to have "dog like" unityacademyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01010831239598634917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-56264795026355712252009-07-22T15:19:18.897+01:002009-07-22T15:19:18.897+01:00What bothered me most about the emphasis on prosti...What bothered me most about the emphasis on prostitution in Night Watch was the elision of the john, and of the danger, misery, and violence of prostitution. It was treated as if it were all jokey fun with no acknowledgment of the negatives the women experience. That seemed odd for Pratchett to do, usually he is keenly aware of the negative side of things he is writing about and goes out of his Phio Gistichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13309613509986519561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-66033039983919479402009-05-17T08:00:00.000+01:002009-05-17T08:00:00.000+01:00I would just like to point out that in the case of...I would just like to point out that in the case of Terry Pratchett, Night Watch, more than any other book is about stereotypes of the past. As to the fact that the only women in the revolution were the prostitutes why are you so surprised? The Seamstresses are already outside the law, and organized besides; they are by dint of their lifestyle already accustomed to breaking the rules; already Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578106048092141220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-15175502324129114482008-08-31T18:17:00.000+01:002008-08-31T18:17:00.000+01:00here is a query: is inara's respectability connect...here is a query: is inara's respectability connected to the item of her trade, or the money, respectability, etc., of the organization she belongs to? would she be equally independent and respected if she were, say, a high-end private trader associated with an important guild?<BR/><BR/>I also would be interested to know what you think of Lois Bujold's LPSTs (Licensed Practical Sexuality Norahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10497868508410383590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-9961079919070496692008-08-29T09:10:00.000+01:002008-08-29T09:10:00.000+01:00Damn, accidentally deleted the post. Reconstructi...Damn, accidentally deleted the post. Reconstruction:<BR/><BR/>When I'm writing a scene involving sex from a female character's p.o.v., I always run it past a couple of women first readers, to make sure I'm at least not being -obviously- off, or too manifestly projecting a male sexual fantasy on 'her'.<BR/><BR/>I'm proud to say that I haven't gotten the "that's a man with tits" response for quiteS.M. Stirlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18091131550027851275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-8085914967278906512008-08-01T23:32:00.000+01:002008-08-01T23:32:00.000+01:00"...and all will find it marketed to them at some ..."...and all will find it marketed to them at some point."<BR/><BR/>Sadly, we pretty much learn that our wallets make us a target market right about the same time that they figure out they have a service to sell us. Seriously, more people need to read Louise Kaplan's books if this is still a surprising fact of life.<BR/><BR/>Do not underplay the importance of the fact that the market is a system s9https://www.blogger.com/profile/08326725206530909278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-23084903504316286062007-10-23T12:33:00.000+01:002007-10-23T12:33:00.000+01:00Anon @ 21.01: you have a good point about men writ...<B>Anon @ 21.01</B>: you have a good point about men writing out the dark side of the sex trade (though as with all statistics, that 'half or more' is <A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201401_pf.html" REL="nofollow">not universally accepted</A>), and Mieville does address it a little later, after the money runs out; the prostitutes refuse to work thenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851538869806389235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-61800013581209981002007-10-23T04:09:00.000+01:002007-10-23T04:09:00.000+01:00I mentioned Jacqueline Carey because she is a fema...I mentioned Jacqueline Carey because she is a female writer best known for a certain fantasy series in which the heroine is a prostitute who lives in a society in which being a prostitute is a highly respected profession with a connection to the society's religion. It's explicitly a utopian version of prostitution in an idealized society complete with idealized people (who are literally descendedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-9709306951818663742007-10-22T14:38:00.000+01:002007-10-22T14:38:00.000+01:00TBH I'm not that keen on all-women anythings, espe...TBH I'm not that keen on all-women anythings, especially not here in the real world, but it's notable that there's so much <I>all-male</I> space. Then, Pratchett does like his gender roles - witches and wizards and so on - he's just usually more engaging with them than this. I'm thinking of that barbarian lady - Vera, wasn't it?, and Bethan, the nice temple girl who was far too smart for Cohen.thenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851538869806389235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-56690283916078677692007-10-22T11:25:00.000+01:002007-10-22T11:25:00.000+01:00Thene -- I think you're on to something. At first...Thene -- I think you're on to something. At first the Seamstress Guild seemed like a comment on social injustice, the only organization of women who were recognized by the city were prostitutes, and would be forgivable in Night Watch as a contrast in the past to how much AM is progressing... if AM were progressing in this aspect. Thing is, the overall plot of the Watch and City books is that Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-85144120680171191882007-10-22T11:11:00.000+01:002007-10-22T11:11:00.000+01:00Anon - In Men at Arms, Angua specifically makes th...Anon - In Men at Arms, Angua specifically makes that she saw the Seamstresses as her only other choice. (The same book mentions that Molly - the Beggar Queen - and Mrs Palm are the only female guild leaders). There being only one <I>all</I>-female guild while there are so many all-male ones is worth a poke at in any case. I spoke of Night Watch in particular, and whichever way you swing it, thenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851538869806389235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-20038557001357131092007-10-22T03:33:00.000+01:002007-10-22T03:33:00.000+01:00(Did my other attempt to post something disappear ...(Did my other attempt to post something disappear into the aether?)<BR/><BR/>Does the Frank Miller test apply to female writers, such as Jacqueline Carey?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-30235042214955779812007-10-22T01:57:00.000+01:002007-10-22T01:57:00.000+01:00As for Pratchett, I count 4 guilds with female mem...As for Pratchett, I count 4 guilds with female members - seamstresses, beggars, night watch and the assassains. It's a point that's brought up in multiple books.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-25166894426928570992007-10-22T00:43:00.000+01:002007-10-22T00:43:00.000+01:00Mythago, could I ask you to explain that point Pra...Mythago, could I ask you to explain that point Pratchett is trying to make further?thenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851538869806389235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-67478813745729495612007-10-22T00:13:00.000+01:002007-10-22T00:13:00.000+01:00I suppose it's possible to beat Mieville in a way ...I suppose it's possible to beat Mieville in a way that wouldn't leave visible marks, other than a few papercuts.<BR/><BR/>Re Pratchett--the fact that the only organized female power in Ankh-Morpork is the Seamstresses strikes me more as a point Pratchett is trying to make than one he's overlooked.mythagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138471078836187498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-68995509699785212142007-10-21T05:37:00.000+01:002007-10-21T05:37:00.000+01:00Foxessa, exchanging a given "value for support" ha...Foxessa, exchanging a given "value for support" hasn't vanished with "our sfnal times" (I have no idea however you define those) -- because it hasn't vanished at all. Although women have won the option to receive wages for our work, against patriarchal interdictions that have come and gone in waves, the presence of women on a capitalist market has never precluded the contemporary continuation of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-75667791161009954692007-10-20T20:05:00.000+01:002007-10-20T20:05:00.000+01:00[ I think any thinking about capitalism and women ...[ <B>I think any thinking about capitalism and women will eventually touch on sex work, because, whether or not it's a common experience for women in capitalism to *be a sex worker*, it is abominably common to ask her to exchange her sex appeal for money in some fashion.</B> ]<BR/><BR/>In days prior to our sfnal times, the other option was that a woman exchanged her reproductive value for supportFoxessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06754083123669916994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-58668661172555312712007-10-20T19:33:00.000+01:002007-10-20T19:33:00.000+01:00ide cyan - WORD WORD WORD.Liz - thanks. (but don'...ide cyan - WORD WORD WORD.<BR/><BR/>Liz - thanks. (but don't bother, they're not that interesting).<BR/><BR/>Yonmei - also thanks.<BR/><BR/>the angry black woman - he does? I wondered if he didn't, partly because he writes some good gay and partly because the het relationships he write seem fairly cold (excepting Isaac and Lin, and I always wondered if Lin was a queer cipher). Thanks for thenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851538869806389235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-37669774014155693782007-10-20T19:11:00.000+01:002007-10-20T19:11:00.000+01:00LAS: I take your general point - it's hard to chal...LAS: I take your general point - it's hard to challenge the appropriation of <I>anything</I> without crossing a line into silencing, and I'm probably failing here. What I'm condemning Mieville for is for using prostitution as the <I>only</I> form of women's organisation - it's the only way he's engaging with <I>gender</I> at all. That he seems to be using that to score gender points - the idea thenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851538869806389235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-86841649744153593282007-10-20T18:23:00.000+01:002007-10-20T18:23:00.000+01:00Oh, brilliant, you just totally made my day. I'm ...Oh, brilliant, you just totally made my day. I'm going to go read through your archives now...<BR/><BR/>- Liz<BR/>http://liz-henry.blogspot.comLizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02650178982186311590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-9831142632382948232007-10-20T18:01:00.000+01:002007-10-20T18:01:00.000+01:00Thene: He conveniently omitted the fact that it wa...Thene: He conveniently omitted the fact that it was yours when he mailed that along with several other books! <BR/><BR/><I>I love Ann-Hari, too, but the way sex work was an essential part of her journey smells funny.</I> <BR/><BR/>I rankle at that as well- as if it was a spiritual (for lack of a better word) experience that was responsible for her transformation from curious but scared young Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-10342446493738428722007-10-20T17:30:00.000+01:002007-10-20T17:30:00.000+01:00I think I am going to say here, that as someone wh...I think I am going to say here, that as someone who *knows* sex workers who have organized themselves in various particular ways, something about this post seems off. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me (though this is clearly an arguable point) that you are condemning Mieville for critically engaging exactly the tropes that CS Lewis blindly constructed. And I see those as two different enterprises with Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-78249208893577724062007-10-20T16:11:00.000+01:002007-10-20T16:11:00.000+01:001 - Mieville does like the vagina, though this fac...1 - Mieville does like the vagina, though this fact doesn't make any of that better.<BR/><BR/>2 - The Perpetual Train is the only part of Iron Council that I liked. the rest made me want to go beat China with his own book. Of course, I didn't because he is handsome.<BR/><BR/>3 - Thank god you said everything you just said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3310141367986647635.post-6185370850326413042007-10-20T14:45:00.000+01:002007-10-20T14:45:00.000+01:00Wow, this is brilliant - and I hadn't thought at a...Wow, this is brilliant - and I hadn't thought at all of extending my thoughts about C. S. Lewis's story and James Tiptree Jr's story to look at the wider aspect of sex workers in fiction.<BR/><BR/>Thanks. I'm going to link to this post from my post on feministsf.Yonmeihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02664775236604734383noreply@blogger.com